查看: 22276|回复: 208

中文论坛的一些讨论

  [复制链接]

725

主题

2979

帖子

8278

积分

论坛元老

Rank: 8Rank: 8

积分
8278
发表于 2020-1-30 00:23:02 | 显示全部楼层 |阅读模式
本帖最后由 spid 于 2021-3-16 07:51 编辑

标  题: 看了几天,关于病毒来源,还是这个说法比较靠谱
根据Dale08的总结,

理一个时间线:
2013年5月16号,武汉石正丽组和美国NGO的合作研究发现中国境内蝙蝠携带类SARS病毒
的手稿投到Nature, 9月份接收,10月出版。
https://www.nature.com/articles/nature12711

2015年6月,北卡的研究组投了一篇手稿给Nature Medicine, 讲述一种人造病毒具有全
部活性,可传人,已知的治疗手段都不管用。这个人造病毒是用2013年石正丽发现的蝙
蝠天然病毒中的spike protein替换2003年的SARS-CoV中的S蛋白,是个嵌合体,这个新
的人造病毒命名是SHC014-CoV。
https://www.nature.com/articles/nm.3985?fbclid=IwAR0iTTfDlT-uxNFPtvQH-
xFrF6QaF1hKE1Ey2TPrEi17XfFUElbpUlAosDc

武汉病毒所和纽约一个研究动物人之间传染病的NGO组织合作,2013年发现蝙蝠携带类
似2003年的Sars病毒,然后用这个发现在Nature发文章。初衷多半也是了发文章拿房顶。
2年后,北卡的研究组利用武汉的成果,替换S蛋白,改造出新的人造病毒,和今天武汉
的病毒具有相似性,Nature的文章可以去查。北卡的人改造的病毒和今天的武汉病毒肯
定不可能完全相同,否则直接被人抓包。但结构和原理上具有相似性就很说明问题了。
逻辑也是自洽的,这是目前为止最有说服力的证据。
--
※ 来源:·WWW 未名空间站 网址:mitbbs.com 移动:在应用商店搜索未名空间·[FROM: 2001:569:77c4:2]




宁鸣而死,不默而生
回复

使用道具 举报

725

主题

2979

帖子

8278

积分

论坛元老

Rank: 8Rank: 8

积分
8278
 楼主| 发表于 2020-1-30 01:02:14 | 显示全部楼层
很难实锤,但是看着挺有意思的,可以再挖挖。
可以实锤的是,这个新型冠状病毒看来早就有了,而且早就知道,最晚不晚于去年9月
宁鸣而死,不默而生
回复

使用道具 举报

725

主题

2979

帖子

8278

积分

论坛元老

Rank: 8Rank: 8

积分
8278
 楼主| 发表于 2020-1-31 00:45:10 | 显示全部楼层
       上述论点很难被证实,毕竟连患病情况都要隐藏的政府,要它坦承管理草率的研究机构导致了全球性灾难,基本上不太可能发生。
       中国科研机构管理不规范并不稀奇。贺建奎做基因编辑婴儿这种层级的事都没人管,要他自己发文才被世人知晓,而且实际上中国官媒的第一反应是自豪地宣称中国有了世界第一的技术突破,由此可知从上到下,进行管理的都是外行,也就是中国所谓的行政人员。这其实是中国现阶段很大的一个问题,做决策的都是行政人员,他们听取专家的意见,但是实际上根本无从判断专家有没有在糊弄它们。让事情很难有改观的是,继任行政人员的选拔是由现任行政人员决定的,外行选外行,越跑越偏。 这是题外的,大致来说,中国现阶段的管理和决策构架,真是没有什么不可能。
       回到武汉肺炎病毒。专家又在甩锅给野生动物,可惜了,野生动物不会说人话。从行政层面来说,这种借口比较容易安抚百姓,毕竟野生动物你也没办法掌控。但从种种迹象来看,野生动物说似乎并不很符合,相反的,专业机构说逻辑上更容易解释。
       病毒所与纽约NGO合作修改冠状病毒,病毒所有病毒种源,而且经过修改后某些特性会发生改变,比如潜伏期长,症状不明显,这都与当前发现的肺炎病毒相符。
       不太能想象手握病毒的人会刻意向人群去释放这样的病毒,这个简直是战争行为了。我倾向由于管理混乱导致的病毒泄漏,比如前述贴子中提到的生物垃圾的处理。病毒所有大量的实验动物尸体需要处理,而这个工作被外包了!在中国吃或倒卖实验动物尸体,并非天方夜谭,只要价格合适也会有商家愿意收购。这个外包的实验动物尸体处置如果出了岔子,造成病毒扩散是完全可能的。假设外包商定期收集处理病毒所的动物尸体,而收取动物尸体的人截留了一部分商家愿意收购的动物尸体,并转头运输到动物交易集散地,或者直接处理后运输到禽肉市场,在这个过程中病毒泄漏就有可能发生。由于此次武冠病毒潜伏期长症状轻,泄漏初期被忽视也不奇怪,待流行时已经比较难考证源头了。如果是这个逻辑,那么实验动物尸体处理,运输人员是最早接触病毒的,在处理,运输途中又会感染一些人,在售卖过程中又会感染一部分人。经过一定潜伏期后,其中一部分人自愈,另有一部分人发病,并不断向下级链式传播。这个假设似乎比较接近相关数据。
        比较有意思的一点是,这个发病时间太巧了,正好赶上春运,极大地帮助了病毒的大范围流通扩散,这种巧合也需要一个合理解释。
      







宁鸣而死,不默而生
回复

使用道具 举报

725

主题

2979

帖子

8278

积分

论坛元老

Rank: 8Rank: 8

积分
8278
 楼主| 发表于 2020-4-5 10:03:52 | 显示全部楼层
spid 发表于 2020-3-7 16:53
发信人: zyzha0924 (zyzha0924), 信区: Military
标  题: 阴谋论高级版本
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Fri Ma ...

独运轮现在领导大外宣了?
中国外交部发言人之后不久开始用这样的理由在美国网站攻击美国(3月13日),有意思了。。
华人网站现在多的是奉命发言的,民间言论被搅得一团糟也就算了,还送官方上,这是里通独运轮了吧。
宁鸣而死,不默而生
回复

使用道具 举报

725

主题

2979

帖子

8278

积分

论坛元老

Rank: 8Rank: 8

积分
8278
 楼主| 发表于 2020-4-8 01:02:10 | 显示全部楼层
spid 发表于 2020-1-31 00:45
上述论点很难被证实,毕竟连患病情况都要隐藏的政府,要它坦承管理草率的研究机构导致了全球性灾难 ...

武汉的病死率绝对造假了。
至少有一半是以疑似状态死去的。另外还有死在家里的,连疑似都算不上。
早期信息隐瞒很多,有意无意引导误判,这宣传也是够下作。
宁鸣而死,不默而生
回复

使用道具 举报

725

主题

2979

帖子

8278

积分

论坛元老

Rank: 8Rank: 8

积分
8278
 楼主| 发表于 2020-1-30 00:23:18 | 显示全部楼层
发信人: atack (小军号), 信区: Military
标  题: Re: 看了几天,关于病毒来源,还是这个说法比较靠谱
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Tue Jan 28 23:37:55 2020, 美东)

你要先闹明白2019-NCOV最相似的是2018 SID: AVP78033.1,那是南京军科院的


【 在 mstp(再试一次) 的大作中提到: 】
<br>: 就目前的信息看,武汉病毒所只是2013年发现了类Sars病毒,但病毒的改造
<br>: 是北卡研究组2015年后完成的。再到2019年武汉疫情,4年时间,
<br>: 再改造1代,甚至2代病毒完全做得到。
<br>: 至于病毒怎么泄露的,这个还要细查。比如病毒所内部有CIA的线人,
<br>: 悄悄投毒完全可能。时间挑的太巧了,刚好利用冬季流感爆发期,
<br>: 症状类似流感,可以混淆视线,延缓大众的警觉性,从而为大面积
<br>: 传染创造时间。而且临近春运,武汉又是南北交通的枢纽,
<br>: 对于大面积扩散也是起到火上浇油的效果。
<br>
--
※ 来源:· 未名空间站 网址:mitbbs.com 移动:在应用商店搜索未名空间·[FROM: 2600:1702:6f0:a]
宁鸣而死,不默而生
回复

使用道具 举报

725

主题

2979

帖子

8278

积分

论坛元老

Rank: 8Rank: 8

积分
8278
 楼主| 发表于 2020-1-30 00:39:31 | 显示全部楼层
美国的阴谋论论坛,看着挺有趣,难为它把中文都翻译了。
听说有老将专门给人家供料的


发信人: qiing (契旲), 信区: Military
标  题: 武汉病毒所的周鹏被外国记者挖出来了。另外,袋鼠国成功在实验室培育出2019-nCoV病毒
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed Jan 29 08:18:00 2020, 美东)

https://www.zerohedge.com/health ... oronavirus-pandemic



--
抱诚守真
抱残守缺
抱扑守拙

※ 来源:·WWW 未名空间站 网址:mitbbs.com 移动:在应用商店搜索未名空间·[FROM: 97.]

这个外国小伙研究了武汉病毒所的一个研究员,他称之为蝙蝠神 bat-god。挺有意思,转载一下,不做任何推定


Is This The Man Behind The Global Coronavirus Pandemic?

by Tyler Durden
Wed, 01/29/2020 - 09:01

Why is this notable? Because as it turns out, this is a job posting for the lab of Dr. Peng Zhou (周鹏), Ph.D., a researcher at the Wuhan Institute of Virology and Leader of the Bat Virus Infection and Immunization Group. Some more on Zhou's background from the Institute (google translated):
He received his PhD in Wuhan Virus Research Institute in 2010 and has worked on bat virus and immunology in Australia and Singapore. In 2009 , he took the lead in starting the research on the immune mechanism of bat long-term carrying and transmitting virus in the world. So far, he has published more than 30 SCI articles, including the first and corresponding author's Nature , Cell Host Microbe and PNAS . At present, research on bat virus and immunology is continuing, and it has received support from the National "You Qing" Fund, the pilot project of the Chinese Academy of Sciences, and the major project of the Ministry of Science and Technology.
Which brings us to the punchline: courtesy of the Wuhan institute of virology, here is a press release from Dr. Zhou's lab titled "How bats carry viruses without getting sick":
Bats are known to harbor highly pathogenic viruses like Ebola, Marburg, Hendra, Nipah, and SARS-CoV, and yet they do not show clinical signs of disease. In a paper published in the journal Cell Host & Microbe on February 22, scientists at the Wuhan Institute of Virology in China find that in bats, an antiviral immune pathway called the STING-interferon pathway is dampened, and bats can maintain just enough defense against illness without triggering a heightened immune reaction.
"We believe there is a balance between bats and the pathogens they carry," says senior author Peng Zhou. "This work demonstrated that in order to maintain a balance with viruses, bats may have evolved to dampen certain pathways."
In humans and other mammals, an immune-based over-response to one of these and other pathogenic viruses can trigger severe illness. For example, in humans, an activated STING pathway is linked with severe autoimmune diseases.
"In human history, we have been chasing infectious diseases one after another," says Zhou, "but bats appear to be a 'super-mammal' to these deadly viruses." By identifying a weakened but not defunct STING pathway, researchers have some new insight into how bats fine-tune antiviral defenses to balance an effective, but not an overt, response against viruses.
The authors hypothesize that this defense strategy evolved as part of three interconnected features of bat biology: they are flying mammals, have a long lifespan, and host a large viral reservoir.
"Adaptation to flight likely caused positive selection of multiple bat innate immune and DNA damage repair genes," Zhou says. These adaptations may have shaped certain antiviral pathways (STING, interferon, and others) to make them good viral reservoir hosts and achieve a tolerable balance."
And just in case, here is a google-translated press release from Jan 18, 2019 describing the achievements of Dr. Peng Zhou:
Wuhan has the first person in the global bat immunity research: "I rushed forward with a sword"
Changjiang Daily Financial Media May 4 hearing last month as they tied for first author made a "natural", in recent years, the Chinese Academy of Sciences Wuhan virus after 80 young researchers Zhou Peng has been in the "natural", "American Academy of Sciences ”And other international authoritative magazines published 28 papers, becoming academic stars. In an interview with reporters recently, he introduced that young scientists do not rely on genius to hold, but rely on "super confident".
It is understood that Zhou Peng is the pioneer of global bat immune system research. "Bats carry viruses but do not get sick. They have not been researched by scientists before, and certainly have specificity different from other species, but this is like you know the beginning and Ending without knowing how the story happened. " After more than 10 years of research, Zhou Peng discovered that an antiviral immune channel called "interferon gene-stimulating protein-interferon" in the bat's body was inhibited, so that the bat could just resist the disease without triggering a strong immune response. The results were published in Cells, Hosts and Microorganisms, which aroused the attention of the academic community.
Zhou Peng, a student of undergraduate bioengineering, experienced SARS (Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome) in his junior year, which made him interested in the virus: "A small virus makes the world mess." He was admitted to the Wuhan Institute of Virology of the Chinese Academy of Sciences at the postgraduate level, and studied under Shi Zhengli, a bat expert. Focusing on the virus carried by the bat, then I was wondering if the bat's immune system is special. "
After graduating from the PhD, he entered the Australian Animal Health Laboratory and became the first person in the global bat immunity research. "I went through 4 years of trial and error, groped in the dark, and hit the South Wall numerous times. I still remember a 'darkest moment' 'In the local cold winter, I was holding the frostbite knee, sitting at the beach, and asking myself why this was the case.'
He began to learn Australian jokes and inspired himself. In 2016, during postdoctoral studies at Duke University-National University of Singapore Medical School, he was concerned that a certain interferon in bats is always maintained at a high level. This paper became the cover article of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, "Bat Immunity "This door was opened, and more and more people in the world are paying attention to this field." Our generation, when we were in college, watched "The Forrest Gump" and "Redemption of Shawshank" and taught us stupidity and perseverance. I I feel like I am carrying a sword and rushing forward. "
After returning to China in 2016, Zhou Peng returned to his alma mater to become a little-known young researcher. "In the long run, bats carry the virus without getting sick. It is hoped that humans can learn how to fight the virus, but this is still far from industrialization. Far, the road ahead is long, and we must remain 'super confident' and continue to move forward. "(Reporter Li Jia correspondent Chen teased Li Li intern Luo Yameng)

And here is the man, the myth, the bat-god himself: Peng Zhou.
Peng Zhou, Ph.D., researcher, team leader of bat virus infection and immunity. He successively obtained bachelor's and doctoral degrees from Henan University (2004) and Wuhan Institute of Virology, Chinese Academy of Sciences (2010). During his doctorate, he was sent to the Australian Animal Health Laboratory for study. He then carried out research work at Duke-Nus Medical College in Australia and Singapore. He has long been engaged in the research of new virus epidemiology and bat antiviral immunity, revealing that bats carry SARS, MERS, and Ebola for a long time but do not have their own immune mechanisms.
Currently he is hosting and undertaking 3 projects of the National Natural Science Foundation of China, and the Chinese Academy of Sciences Special project and a major national science and technology project - a major project for the prevention and control of infectious diseases. Currently published 28 SCI papers, including Nature, Cell Host Microbe, PNAS and other articles SCI papers, including Nature, Cell Host Microbe, PNAS and other articles published by the first or corresponding author. It is at the forefront of the world in the field of bat and virus research.
So to summarize:
1. One of China's top virology and immunology experts was and still works at China's top-rated biohazard lab, the Wuhan Institute of Virology, which some have affectionately called the real Umbrella Corp.
2. Since 2009, Peng has been the leading Chinese scientist researching the immune mechanism of bats carrying and transmitting lethal viruses in the world.
3. His primary field of study is researching how and why bats can be infected with some of the most nightmarish viruses in the world including Ebola, SARS and Coronavirus, and not get sick.
4. He was genetically engineering various immune pathways (such as the STING pathway in bats) to make the bats more or less susceptible to infection, in the process potentially creating a highly resistant mutant superbug.
5. As part of his studies, Peng also researched mutant Coronavirus strains that overcame the natural immunity of some bats; these are "superbug" Coronavirus strains, which are not resistant to any natural immune pathway, and now appear to be out in the wild.
6. As of mid-November, his lab was actively hiring inexperienced post-docs to help conduct his research into super-Coronaviruses and bat infections.
7. Peng's work on virology and bat immunology has received support from the National "You Qing" Fund, the pilot project of the Chinese Academy of Sciences, and the major project of the Ministry of Science and Technology.
* * *
Something tells us, if anyone wants to find out what really caused the coronavirus pandemic that has infected thousands of people in China and around the globe, they should probably pay Dr. Peng a visit.
宁鸣而死,不默而生
回复

使用道具 举报

725

主题

2979

帖子

8278

积分

论坛元老

Rank: 8Rank: 8

积分
8278
 楼主| 发表于 2020-1-30 00:42:25 | 显示全部楼层
发信人: qiing (契旲), 信区: Military
标  题: Re: CIA要是每年来这么一次 中国怎么办?
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Tue Jan 28 18:50:56 2020, 美东)

这么说,那个NGO嫌疑最大吧。

在HK,米蒂背景的NGO都是CIA的外围组织。

细思极恐。

【 在 mstp (再试一次) 的大作中提到: 】
: 综合已有的信息看,就是武汉病毒所和纽约这个所谓的NGO合作的项目。
: 武汉这边负责提供类Sars的原病毒,纽约那边负责改良后生成新变种冠状病毒。
: 至于目的是什么,病毒是怎么流出来的,目前不得而知,反正水很深。




--
抱诚守真
抱残守缺
抱扑守拙

※ 修改:·qiing 於 Jan 28 18:52:15 2020 修改本文·[FROM: 97.]
※ 来源:·WWW 未名空间站 网址:mitbbs.com 移动:在应用商店搜索未名空间·[FROM: 97.]
宁鸣而死,不默而生
回复

使用道具 举报

725

主题

2979

帖子

8278

积分

论坛元老

Rank: 8Rank: 8

积分
8278
 楼主| 发表于 2020-1-30 00:46:20 | 显示全部楼层
发信人: atack (小军号), 信区: Military
标  题: Re: 把病毒蝙蝠弄到武汉,除了病毒所还能有谁?
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Tue Jan 28 23:32:37 2020, 美东)

新冠状病毒和2018 SID: AVP78033.1 的一些序列完全相同,这是舟山群岛的蝙蝠,武
汉只有她的实验室有,就这个就足够抓捕审讯她了


【 在 simadong(simadong) 的大作中提到: 】
<br>: First need evidence, so far only baseless conjectures.
<br>: doctors
<br>
--
※ 来源:· 未名空间站 网址:mitbbs.com 移动:在应用商店搜索未名空间·[FROM: 2600:1702:6f0:a]
宁鸣而死,不默而生
回复

使用道具 举报

725

主题

2979

帖子

8278

积分

论坛元老

Rank: 8Rank: 8

积分
8278
 楼主| 发表于 2020-1-30 00:48:41 | 显示全部楼层
发信人: icq9999 (哈哈老夫子), 信区: Military
标  题: 武汉病毒所曾经因为焚烧尸体,被环保部门处罚
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Tue Jan 28 19:42:58 2020, 美东)

该所原来自己有尸体焚烧炉处理尸体。随着周边居住小区增加,被居民投诉到环保部门
。环保部门要求整改,结果该所改在半夜偷偷摸摸地焚烧尸体。发现后被罚了一笔钱。

听说后来关闭了焚烧炉。尸体外包处置。
--
※ 来源:·WWW 未名空间站 网址:mitbbs.com 移动:在应用商店搜索未名空间·[FROM: 74.]

发信人: F250 (帝城春欲暮,能饮一杯无), 信区: Military
标  题: 武汉病毒所曾经因为焚烧尸体,被环保部门处罚
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Tue Jan 28 19:57:39 2020, 美东)


看来兔子尸体流出的说法有道理

根据发表的文章,2018在研究猪,猪肉可能也流出




--
※ 来源:· 未名空间站 网址:mitbbs.com 移动:在应用商店搜索未名空间·[FROM: 156.]

哈,这个猪的料也猛

宁鸣而死,不默而生
回复

使用道具 举报

725

主题

2979

帖子

8278

积分

论坛元老

Rank: 8Rank: 8

积分
8278
 楼主| 发表于 2020-1-31 08:47:15 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 spid 于 2020-1-31 08:49 编辑

发现一篇《看中国》的文章。比较反华的中文媒体,不过其信息似乎属实,也就是前两天中文论坛在讨论的东西,它整理一下。
zero hedge是财经博客,哈哈,怎地中文论坛有网友叫它西方阴谋论小鼻祖。这次 zero hedge C位出道啊

以下看中国部分原文:

1月30日,路德通过他的YouTube频道路德社揭露,早在2015年,海外医学网站Nature Medicine上发表了一篇论文,主要作者为武汉大学病毒研究所葛杏意(Xingyi Ge,音译)和石征利(Zhengli Shi,音译)。
这篇论文说,他们医学研究发现,只要把蝙蝠身上的S蛋白里的ACE2这个受体开关一调,这个病毒马上就可以传染给人类。
路德引述文章的研究结果称,利用病毒基因重组技术将蝙蝠的S蛋白和小老鼠的Sars病毒重组,得到的新病毒可以和人体的血管紧张素转化酶2(ACE2)结合,能很有效地感染人类的呼吸道细胞,而且毒性大。同时,在老鼠身上实验时,他们发现新病毒明显地损害老鼠的肺部,能让在老鼠生病时,已有的抗体和疫苗不管用。他们觉得这个发现非常有价值,继续用猴子做实验,模拟病毒在人体上的效果。
这个实验当时引起非常大的争议,医学专家Declan Butler也在Nature Medicine上撰文表示,这种实验没有什么意义,而且风险很大。由于缺乏技术,当时石征利团队是和美国北卡罗莱纳的一个医学小组合作。2014年美国已经叫停了这种病毒改造计划,并停止拨款给相关的研究。两人发表的这篇文章是想打动当局继续拨款。
路德说,香港传染病专家袁国勇当时也知道了这个事情。他在接受采访时说,基因改造的病毒传染给人类的可能性还未知,他认为不要接触野生动物比较保险。
他继续说,目前有怀疑武汉肺炎的病毒来自实验室,是基于以下证据。
首先,S蛋白的ACE2能奇迹地被改造成可以在人身上传播;其次,武汉的类SARS冠状病毒就是来源于中共军方2018年从舟山蝙蝠身上发现并成功分离的新型冠状病毒。
基于以上发现,行内的专家都会明白这是人工改造。
病毒序列可以在美国国立卫生研究院的基因子据库找到(NIH的GenBank),由南京军区军事医学科学研究所递交,并且通过技术故意更改舟山蝙蝠病毒,适于人类传播的新病毒。
此外,稍早前,西方财经专业博客“零对冲”(Zero Hedge)也公布了一个惊人的消息,武汉新型冠状病毒肺炎可能与当地P4病毒实验室的研究人员相关。
“零对冲”为具有16年历史的伦敦ABC Media Limited所拥有,“零对冲”指出,在新型病毒爆发前不久,2019年11月武汉病毒研究所发布了招聘启事,而发布招聘的学科组组长,周鹏研究的项目正是研究可以长期潜伏人体而不产生发病症状的伊波拉病毒,SARS病毒。相关消息的公布把周鹏推上了舆论的风口浪尖。
“零对冲”指出,谁是全球冠状病毒大流行幕后的人?中国(中共)的官方说法是因为有人在华南海鲜市场上吃了蝙蝠汤。然而,这只是虚构的闹剧。
宁鸣而死,不默而生
回复

使用道具 举报

5

主题

79

帖子

217

积分

中级会员

Rank: 3Rank: 3

积分
217
发表于 2020-1-31 23:37:29 | 显示全部楼层
哈,本版文章都是热点内容呀
回复

使用道具 举报

您需要登录后才可以回帖 登录 | 立即注册

本版积分规则


快速回复 返回顶部 返回列表